[00:00:00] Today we have the pleasure of speaking with the talented and accomplished Heather grace, Stewart best-selling author, speaker, and author, coach. Who has experienced both triumph and challenges on her journey to success? She shares valuable insights. And practical tips on navigating the ever evolving world of writing and publishing. Join us as we explore topics such as dealing with writer's block, finding inspiration, building a personal brand and overcoming rejection. Heather's candid and relatable approach. Will inspire you to embrace her passion and create a path to success. Heather was born in Ottawa has lived in and around Montreal for 26 years as a poet and novelist.
She's inspired by family nature and how digital technology both enhances and hinders relationships. Edwin Cove and sunset Ridge, the settings for her sixth and most recent romantic comedy [00:01:00] novel. Lucky we're based on the beautiful rural Ontario and Quebec towns. She has lived in and explored all of her life.
She now lives on an island near Montreal with bill Finn and Marmee the cat at the sunroom window. In her free time. She enjoys inline skating by the St. Lawrence river in summer. And dancing while cooking to keep warm in the winter. So grab a cup of coffee. Sit back. And get ready to unlock your full potential with Heather Grace Stewart.
In this episode of success in mind. So I am Really fascinated by the creative process and. What inspires you as a writer? So where do you get inspiration from and then how do you translate your inspiration [00:02:00] into a successful book?
I have been writing since I was five years old, as long as I could spell, and so a lot of that took place up at my family's cottage. which is interestingly enough in Quebec where I live, but I was, we're from Ottawa, but I ended up here living here later on in life. And our cottage allowed for a tree for it that my dad and I built.
And, even my mother once took me, poor lady, cause she doesn't like frog that much frog and turtle hunting. And so nature was a real element growing up and it still is today cause we live on an Island. I've always been. inspired in nature. I've written poems in nature. And so I'd say my poetry mostly is nature and family and a little bit as I got into my 30s and technology, we started getting the cell phones, technology and how it helps and hinders in both ways helps and hinders relationships.[00:03:00]
And then that moved into a theme of my novels. So I would say family and nature is also in my novels, but the technology theme and how it can be helpful and how it can also rip people apart has been a theme throughout all of my works. Amazing. Have you always known that you were going to be a writer?
I think I always knew I was going to write. I wasn't sure how to, how it would translate and which medium. And I used to, when I was about 14, 15 think I did become a journalist, but I used to try to, a journalism job as early as 17, going to our local paper and taking photos and writing for them.
And then at the school, the high school, I was, on the paper writing an awful lot, yearbook staff. So all the writing things, but it was more of a journalism element. And I think it wasn't until my final year, we had grade [00:04:00] 13 there, so fifth year, that I started writing poems and realizing how it was a way I could express myself more emotionally than you can with journalism.
So that started at 19. And so then from 19 on, I think it moved more into, oh, I want to do fiction, but I still didn't even think about writing a novel until I was 40. And it wasn't published until I was 41. Yeah. So it started in 19 in different kinds of writing. And I still, I would think about that and I'm like, wow that's something inspiring for people to know that I wasn't published until I was 41.
That inspires me because I'm 42 and I'm looking at writing my first book. So that's really good to know that you can do this at any time, any age. You really can. Honestly. And probably the wisdom that you get in those years and the authenticity that you're more able to be yourself is probably more to your benefit, I'd say.
Yeah I, would agree with that. [00:05:00] I found it, I don't know if this is your experience, but I found turning 40 was such a powerful shift in my identity and how I present myself, my confidence. I hear that from a lot of women. Did you find that? 40, I guess with the book for sure, but it was more, that was more my career changing and shifting because I used to work from home more.
I've always worked from home for 20 years. As a freelancer, I started my own business. 1999. And, but it was more, I wrote for I wrote and edited a law magazine and I also wrote and edited for some career magazines, helping people find their career, which is interesting because I did a podcast on Instagram helping others learn from authors and publishers.
So I, I've always had that career help others in their careers bent, but forties was career. And when I hit 50, it was more like, I've always been authentic, but I think [00:06:00] even more so like people saw me with this purple wig. I think it was, now I'm, now the cat's out of the bag. But being able to do that kind of thing, because it was a mood, which I'll wear again because I love it.
So just being comfortable in your own skin, which is a poem I wrote how long will we live uncomfortable in our own skin, wearing woolen mittens wet because we lack alternatives. I wrote that at 19 and I didn't even listen be more you, but I was saying it to myself. And I think I was, but it's a process.
Like with every year I became more take it or leave it. This is me. I love the purple wig. I know that's how you and I met was through social media. Yes. And I would say that's what has drawn me to you is how authentic you are, that you, are who you are. You're funny. You're unapologetic.
You're, [00:07:00] you online. And that's very relatable. We need more of that, right? Because and I'm not saying anything against plastic surgery or looking your best to each his own. But I think especially the young. People who are starting out, let's say they're starting out, and they have to be on social media because of their career.
But they're going to get the idea that they have to be perfect, and have to look perfect, and have to, everything has to be just and so if I can dance with oven mitts in the kitchen, and it's for fun, and for my friends, but it's also for everybody out there. Who I just maybe just had a whole day writing and then I'm doing that.
So like it can show that you can morph your, the real side of you along with a professional side of you. Yes. You can have both. You can be successful professionally and be a bit of an idiot. That makes me feel very comfortable. Thank you. Can you walk us through what your daily routine is [00:08:00] like around the creative process?
So how do you maintain? discipline, and be creative simultaneously. So for every person that's going to be different, but for me, It's always been right in the morning, always, there's never changed from the age of 20 when I started writing in poems and then journalism, even journalism, I did not write late at night.
So that's just me, but find your time. Because as long as you find the time people go I go throughout the day sometimes. That's not going to be that, it's any consistency. So if you pick a time, if it's noon, fine, but it's noon every day or five days a week, and that consistency keeps you coming back on the rougher days.
It'll, you can always do it when you're passionate about the piece, but when you're not sure about it or it's just not working, the fact that you told yourself, I'm doing this week, Monday to Friday from 7. 30 to 12. 30. So that's what I do right now, [00:09:00] but it's changed over the years when I had a younger family.
Sometimes when my toddler was, three or four. It was preschool hours when they went to preschool for a few hours. So I'd walk them to school on their sleigh and then in the snow, because we're in Montreal, come back, be freaking wet cold, and come to the desk and write and I also did it at four in the morning too, when people say, I don't know, I don't have time because I have a full time job.
Again, I don't mean to be negative because everybody has challenges and sometimes people don't even have a family that supports them, which is such a huge challenge. But I've talked to people over the years. It's one of the things I love to do is encourage them to even get started. And my cat's going to howl throughout this.
That's okay. There's also like those elements, how does your pet react to you and you have to find if you're working from home. Yeah. There's so many different challenges that way, if, you're, if your partner isn't [00:10:00] supportive, believe in yourself, find a library, go to the library and write.
Because people are saying, I've had people, I've had people write me and say I'm in an abusive relationship and I'm like get out, but then, yeah, but then find your time. And then with the time, if you're working nine to five, come home and have to cook. That's really hard for whichever parent it is, male or female.
But I've just said you're just going to have to add an hour. So 5 a. m. to 6, if you're really that, if you really want to make this happen. So that's, creative process is, for me, consistency. Okay. And, and then, The afternoons of setting, setting a schedule for yourself so that you keep to it.
So then my afternoons are business and email and now I do coaching. So I have, coaching writers on, on, in the afternoons and a couple of evenings a week. So [00:11:00] how, do you deal with, like you schedule those times where you're writing and. Do you ever find yourself just staring at the screen? You have no idea what to write, or you're in a period of low creativity, and how do you handle it?
That hasn't happened to me like that. And so I've always thought, what the heck? How am I so different from others? And this is the first time I've admitted that, because to admit that sounds like I have no issues with... Writing and I do, I honestly do, but it's more just starting, just getting started.
Once I'm started, because I have to decide that I love the project enough to work on it. For novels, it's about four months. It can change. For poetry, it's different. The poems flow out of me quite quickly and they're not actually sitting down at the desk necessarily. That's the editing process, that morning time for the poems.
For me, for people who are stuck, because people have asked me and all the time and I say [00:12:00] that I think you have to be passionate about the project and then maybe you'll be unstuck because a lot of the time, you're just not feeling it. So if you want to stick with that project, but you're stuck. And you're staring at a blank page, try different art for a while.
That's really worked for me. Yeah, like I just go and oil paint or I cartoon. I started cartooning for two months. They're probably still on Facebook. It was called Beyond the Picket Fence. And it was about my family because Picket fence. We're not always nobody that lives in a picket fence.
And I did that for a while until I think it was during Strangely Incredibly Good writing my first novel. And I came back to it. Okay. Another example is, with Strangely Incredibly Good, my first novel. I never thought I was going to write a novel, but some people, some other writers. egged me on and convinced me to do and it was so kind of them. I [00:13:00] was at a poetry reading chapters and they handed me a kit, how to write a novel, and I started laughing. They said, Heather, we think you should write a novel now. So I took the kit home and it really helped me define characters and their fatal flaw and write them all out.
And I don't use it. I haven't used it for years, but it was a really good start. I think being passionate about. The project is how you get started. And I was doing St Home staging for a while because I just couldn't figure out what I was doing with strangely, incredibly good. I put it in a drawer.
Someone had also made fun of the idea and I listened to them at a dinner party. I listened to them, don't do that. Listen to your own instincts. And then I put it in a drawer, started home staging. It didn't work out because it's a funny story. , my cat ate the ottoman. Literally ate the ottoman. I bought an ottoman 200 to stage in this home and a bunch of other stuff adding up to about 600 bucks [00:14:00] and was so excited to stage and like I'm here.
I'm actually writing up here and I ran downstairs to see how the ottoman was because I heard something and he started eating it like stuffing it like a dog would like a dog. Yeah. Yeah. He has an eating disorder. Oh, poor guy. Oh, I get that. I have two dogs. So I understand. It really happened. And I ended up putting it in one of the novels and I ended up, it's one of the funniest stories of my career because that happened.
I was devastated. I stopped, I also stopped staging because realtors were doing it themselves at that time a lot more. So they didn't really hire a stager. So I went back to Strangely Incredibly Good. And that was my first novel and then it was published like three months after that happened. I found a publisher.
Amazing. And I've been writing novels ever since. So I thank Marmee. It was Marmee. Every day. He's over his pika. He doesn't do it anymore. Good. He was eating dish, he was eating holes in dish towels. So sometimes. Oh, my [00:15:00] dog does that. I'm going to sound like either Mr. Rogers or somebody. But sometimes.
These things that happen that rip apart your soul and your career and what these obstacles actually end up being help, help to you in the end, but you just don't see it until you get to the place. Your cat knew. He knew. He knew you need to be redirected somewhere else. People say cats are creepy but this one's freaking psychic.
Yeah, I think they're incredibly intuitive. So what are some of the challenges that you faced in your writing career? What are some of the things you've had to overcome? That was difficult. Trying to, just trying to realize that this was, realizing that it's meant for you. I think that's a big step for a lot of people.
Believing that you're a novelist, believing that you're a writer. A lot of people... Don't, aren't able to call themselves that when they're starting out and I think when you start saying it to yourself and to others [00:16:00] and don't say it, quietly and shyly, say it with confidence. I'm a writer.
Writers don't have to be published. If you've written something and it means something to you and it meant something to somebody else, then you're a writer. Oh, I love that. I love that. I think that takes a lot of the pressure off, right? Yeah. And I just think also I've come to realize, but who, it's your life.
Who's to say that you're not a writer, but it would be great if you can get published and then, and be an author, and that's how I use the two terms, like an author actually has authored something and it's been published, but so that's, okay, so that was one challenge, just believing that I was that and owning it, and it started with poet, like saying I was a poet was my twenties and thirties, and then I moved to novelist, and I also think, getting published Because I got first published with Strangely, and it happened very fast with a small Canadian publisher, but [00:17:00] then, Remarkably Great was the sequel because some readers asked for it, which I didn't expect.
I'd written it. with a neat little bow. Like it was tied up neatly, but it still had room for a sequel. It was a happily, it was a happily until now ending. And they wanted a happily ever after. So they wrote me. And so I wrote the sequel and thought I guess I'm writing novels now. But my publisher was deciding to go more into author services and I didn't really want.
to be hiring them for all that. I wanted an actual publisher at the time. They were great though because they ended up, the editor ended up being my editor and I paid her. You should always pay for services like that. Pay it, pay for good helpful graphic designers and don't do it all yourself, get a good cover designer, get a good, editor, a highly reputable editor, make sure you've got recommendations.
And yeah, so just trying to find a publisher [00:18:00] for Remarkably Great and the ticket. When I'd done so well with Strangely Incredibly Good, it had done well. It had actually been a bestseller in four countries on, as an ebook on Kindle. Amazing. So it's done really well. So I had confidence I could take it and self publish the next one, but that didn't turn out that way.
I sent it to so many different publishers. I had one and she was lovely. So there's nothing against her. It's just, it was really a difficult time for me because there was a an agent. You have to find an agent. Usually. Okay. Most of the time. People say you just get a publisher. These days you have to have an agent to open the door to these publishers, but, and this agent.
Was laughing. She wrote me and said I'm laughing about remarkably great in the bus. I'm laughing out loud. I can't stop laughing Can I have the full which is asking for the full manuscript and then I waited four months With not much word and then when I got it back when she responded back It was a no and it was a story.
It was very polite, but there was no Explanation and that's [00:19:00] happened a lot of my career and I've just found a publisher who isn't like that So I'm like just the last few days. And so I'm really In awe and excited it's female owned and, nothing against guys, but it's just that they understand a lot of the women's challenges and, and.
I'm not necessarily going to be published with this agency, which is amazing in and of itself, because if you can find somebody who's going to constructively criticize your work constructively and help you move into the next step and move forward, that's fantastic. Don't ever lose sight of that person.
Yeah. But if they send something back and just go, it's not for me. and you don't really understand why, then how can a person grow as a writer? And I was younger then too. I was 40 at that time. So that was the biggest challenge because that happened with RG and with the ticket. And then again you think these challenges are your obstacles [00:20:00] and in the end they, in the end they end up being to your benefit, but you don't really realize that was the way.
is the ticket became my bestseller. I self published because I couldn't find a publish, an agent or a publisher who wanted it. It was close. A lot of them said, Oh my gosh, this is so funny, but it's not in our publishing schedule, I guess is the word they used. It was not something we're not publishing that kind of book right now, which is what I get a lot.
We're not publishing that kind of book. I haven't talked about this a lot because I used to think it made me, it meant that I wasn't good or it meant that I wasn't succeeding. It meant that something was wrong with my writing. And I've come to realize that it just, wasn't right for them at the time. And it was all about business. It wasn't about my writing because that book has sold 300, 000 copies around the world. You're so easy to talk to. You're making me cry because you're so such a great listener. [00:21:00] Oh thank you.
So that was such a hard time for me. And plus, I guess I was in my forties. So God, menopause was starting, perimenopause. I was a wreck. I'm thankful for my family for being so awesome and I went ahead and published the ticket and I was sad and I want a lot of writers to understand now you can relate to me because it, it feels like a failure when you self publish.
There's still a stigma attached. And I thought this means I'm not as good, but I'll just put it out there. And then I had producers calling me, they called my house. I've had three producer talks and one meeting about the ticket becoming a movie. And because I've just been emotional, hopefully you'll all see that I'm not.
Having an ego here. It's just been such a journey. And I, want people to know that just because you're rejected, it doesn't mean you're not any good. It doesn't mean you can't succeed. Doesn't mean you can't sell hundreds of thousands of copies of your work. You just have to find the right way. And I think one of the challenges is people [00:22:00] quit after five rejection letters.
Now I had only put out, I think I only put out like 40 letters for the ticket. I'd done a lot more for Remarkably Great, but what happened was Remarkably Great was starting to sell well on Kindle. And I was like, and now I know that fantasy doesn't sell quite well, that kind of fantasy, funny fantasy doesn't sell quite as well as, humorous and spicy romance with, some depth.
Like I always put, try to put depth in my books. Not as deep as some literary works, but some of like the themes I told you about, like technology can be. To our help or hindrance. So I just thought I'm going to sell the ticket, because it's going to sell more and it did a lot better than the other books.
The other books are still doing well, but the tickets by far the. Yeah, the best one. Yeah, I'm reading it right now and Loving it. Thank you. Absolutely. Love [00:23:00] it's my kind of genre of book and it's such a fun read and I'm excited to read more of your books after this one because this is It's so good.
It's so fun to read. Thank you for saying that because I'm proud of it. But again, when a creative person does their most recent work, they're usually most proud of their most recent book. I think I'm growing, I'm becoming a better writer. I think my last two books Lauren from last night and Lucky are more literary because and you were talking a bit about, being commercial and being creative.
Yeah. And I mixed the two in those. They're creative, they're zany, so that when they're a bit quirky, they don't necessarily mean that they're going to be commercial. Because not everybody is quirky. Not everybody, commercial means more of the crowd is going to relate to it. I think is the best way to put it for a new writer starting out when you write more of [00:24:00] your own view of the world.
Of course, it's going to be more probably not sell as well because it's something more particular to you and your interests. So commercial means. Something that more people can relate to. So how do you find that balance between writing what's commercial and what's going to what there's a demand for in the market versus what you want to write and your passion for your project?
Because I've been at this so long, I realize I've done a lot of both. And so you can have both and make a living, a small living. Like I do have, I am supported. Sometimes I've, been able to make enough to go on vacations and help with the college fund for our, for Finn. And then other years, so it's not steady.
Some years when the ticket did great and then good nights did great. It was phenomenal and I made a lot of money, but it doesn't, it's not steady. I started realizing, okay, so I've got to feed my soul and feed my [00:25:00] creativity. Luckily I can do that a bit more than some people who want to do this. to pay the bills.
If you want to do writing to pay the bills, you're going to have to speak, you're going to have to make sure you get your audiobooks done, because audiobooks are huge now. So you need to get your books into different kinds of, your work into different kinds of streams. So different, income streams is what I meant.
Okay. For the people who don't know what I mean, income streams is really important for a writer. You can make a living. You definitely can, but there's speaking, there's audiobooks, there are doing, I'm doing a webinar for a writer's group in December. What else? There's oh, and then there's, you can also, on the side, you'll be exhausted though, do technical writing, writing for companies, on, writing for magazines, on top of all that.
I, a lot of people don't know, I don't think that I started off as a journalist, and I wrote for magazines and edited, so I was making quite an income as a writer. Freelance, a lot of [00:26:00] freelance writers can't do that, but because I figured out how to sell to magazines and do contract work for six months writing for Reader's Digest, I wrote an atlas.
I wrote Atlas. Oh, wow. I've done it all because you have to, if you want to make money as a writer, you've got to find these different income streams. And then the balance came along. I think when I had a kid, I think because I had more time and I was at home, I thought maybe now's the time to feed me and do some stuff for my soul.
So I stopped writing regularly for, I had a column at the Queens Alumni Review Magazine and I loved it and I loved working with my editor. Ken. He was such a great mentor to me. I've had a few of those. And that's important that I just said that it was a man, because I was saying earlier I like working with a woman.
It's just for different times in your life, I think, and different projects. He was really great at directing me for journalism and for writing a column. And he [00:27:00] told me one lesson and this is an aside. He said, as a writer, make sure your reader, after they read your piece, is walking away and they've learned something.
Oh, I love that. Yeah. I love that too. So make, that's all you, that's your mission. I can do that. I try to do that in fiction too. And that's where I probably go wrong a bit with, it doesn't turn out as commercial that way, because I'm trying to give a bit of a message or a theme. And that's not always commercial because people don't always want.
They don't always want to know what the author thinks, feels, even if I put it through the character's words, like even if the character is saying it, but anyways, that's an aside. If I'm making sense about like the commercial versus creative is really tough to balance. And so at that time in my life, when I started to write my first novel, I thought, just do it, just write what you and a few close friends would enjoy.
So do this for yourself, and for a few close friends. And if it doesn't succeed, you can always go [00:28:00] back to writing for magazines. And I didn't have to. Yeah. What is I just have some questions here that have come through from the audience. Oh, good. So what was it that made you first realize that you were a writer?
That's from Jerry. There's two, two parts of that answer, Jerry, because you just saw me get emotional about, and so I'm realizing the truth is that when I was a sellable writer, when I could sell an interest, a large audience, and it was relatable, and it was touching them, I would say the ticket. And again, it's not my best writing, so it's just something, I hit something, I hit a nerve, and I hit a funny bone too, with enough people, but so I'd say 2017, 2018, when that went, it did really well, and then producers were calling and they're still interested, but the thing is, you, there's only one me, and I have to push, I'm either gonna go and be knocking on screenwriters doors and [00:29:00] spend a year doing that, or spend a year building my Instagram, which is what I did last year.
Anyway, the answer is that, but also Jerry probably, again, like a writer of the soul and was five years old, into my tree fort I had at the cottage, just writing. I would write, I would read Archie Kahn books and eat bazooka gum. And I would, on a little notepad. Write poems and stories. Most, I wrote short stories a lot as a kid.
I wrote short stories that always ended with, And it was all a dream!
Oh, that's fantastic. And what was I saying about, oh, something came up, right? With the ticket. Oh yeah, so just, yeah, just, realizing I could do that then. Help me continue and not everybody will continue as a self published author because they don't have that success that I had So I think what I'd say to that I have a lot of students who ask like how do you know when you should quit?[00:30:00]
But if it's giving you something if it's feeding your soul and it's making you happy and it's some sort form of therapy for you Which has been for me then keep doing it. You don't have to push yourself to make money Maybe you have you're gonna have to work a day job and do it at night, but just for the joy I don't do anything that, we spend, what, eight hours a day?
I once calculated all the hours a year we spend at work. So you better be doing something that you love because we spend more time at work than we do with our loved ones from five to nine before we fall asleep to Netflix. What is it? You've talked you talked a bit about how you went from more traditional publishing into self publishing.
Can you tell us a little bit more about the pros and cons of each? And, what, should we be looking at in terms of if we're going down the self publishing route? What does that process look like? [00:31:00] So I think the biggest. Benefit to self publishing is creative control. You can choose your cover, you can choose your title, you can choose the emotional ups and downs the character arc, I guess is what I'm saying.
Whereas when you work with a publisher, they're going to have reasons why that won't work. And I've done both. And I've loved both. So I would, and I'm a hybrid author. I still might get published by a publisher. I still might also do another self published piece. And it's, that's a beautiful place to be where I can do both now.
I'm, it's hard to list all the. Pros and cons because it's also personal, right? If you want to make a lot of money, right now, self publishing can probably make more because you really if you apply yourself and, you have a bit of disposable [00:32:00] income to, to put advertising ahead and because you're, that's the thing is you are putting your money in.
That's what I did for graceful publications. I, put at one point I was making money, but at one point I was definitely You know, everything that I made went back into the business, into advertising, into cover hiring a cover designer. And then I rebranded myself for the ticket and good nights.
That's when I started rebranding. And that was another positive. And I would suggest that to people that have your books can, if you're doing a series, which sell a lot better have a consistent font and a consistent. color, not one color, but like a brand of colors. You are your brand. I tell my clients that an author is the brand.
Oh yeah. Now I'm being I'm trying to be funny on Instagram, but trying to be funny. I, people say I am, you are funny. Oh, thank you. But, but that, it turns out [00:33:00] that's my brand, but it took a while to figure out, Oh, okay. Being funny, but also emotional is my brand being Heather.
Some people won't want to do that. And especially if you're starting out, Oh, I have to put my face on. I was telling a student, you need a brighter picture for Instagram. It needs to be yellow or a brighter color behind you. And it needs to be like that to show your face. And they were really shy about that.
And it was just the other day. And I said. Okay, but the problem is that people want to connect with you. They want to know, you don't have to give your pride, you don't have to say what you did, ate for dinner with your husband last night. But to say how you're, for me, this is important for my brand, how my husband has been solid as a rock and he's my trip in good nights.
Not exactly, of course, everything's fictionalized, but that is what your readers want. They want to connect, how does my life connect [00:34:00] to my books? Yeah. What would you say are Did I ask your question? Yes, you did. You did. What would you say are some of the strategies that you've used in building your personal brand?
So like I was saying that one of the biggest surprises to me was something as simple as I wasn't selling again. Again, no, the ticket sold, sorry. But with my, with RG, remarkably great. My venture into self publishing, because I was now self publishing, the original publisher gave back our rights.
It wasn't just me, it was all the authors. They just went a different way than us, gave us back our rights after two years. So then I owned all the rights to my books. So then I repackaged them. And that was the smartest thing I ever did, because I changed the covers. And then I made all my covers with the same kind of font, the same look.
So Don't skimp on your covers. Don't. I spent thousands. Now I'm finding new ways to spend a little less. I just did. I [00:35:00] just use getcovers. com. You guys might want to look into that getcovers. com to do, because I'd already designed, I'd had a graphic designer and I paid them to do all of the love again series and my fantasy series, strangely, incredibly good, but I wanted to do wraparound covers.
And I wish I had done that a long time ago because I did the KDP in KDP, Kindle Direct Publishing, they give you so many amazing tools. And that's why I've always worked with them because they want to help and build authors a lot more in my opinion than other platforms. And they want to, right now they're advertising for me and I'm not paying for advertising.
I noticed that they were advertising. They put emotional depth, looking for emotional depth in your books. And then it was my books. And I was like, Oh wow. Now I have advertised and they know that I do. So I guess I'm selling them. I'm helping Amazon. So, it's the smartest thing you can do to create.
something that your audience will [00:36:00] remember you by, because it takes, I think I heard seven times, it might be three, but it's either three or seven times, you might know because you're in business, before a person actually, like they might see it pass by their, as they're scrolling or on TV, for example, or whatever.
And then the, like the, I think it's the third time, maybe, that they actually click and registers, Oh, I think I want this. So every time you need to be consistent with. How they see you, your brand, so that kind of, oh, those colors and that font. That's a Heather Grace Stewart book. Yeah, that's, and you're right, it is seven.
It's seven points of contact for people to even, for it to even register with them. So that doesn't even mean that they'll be at a point where they go, oh, I want to buy that. It's For them to even clue in that they're seeing it takes seven points. So KDP lets you build on your paperback book. And I didn't have the money right then to pay for wraparounds.
I've done some wraparounds, but then I rebranded. [00:37:00] So I bought the wrapper, they're gorgeous. And then I, a few years later, I rebranded so that I need to do it again. So now I've just done, you've seen them, the new heart covers and paperbacks. And, I think that's really worth the money because. It is what people see first.
And I would say the cover and the back blurb. I learned how to write a back cover blurb and I'm really cautious about how I write that and I even rewrite them sometimes because the first thing they the first contact they have, maybe it's you. And then the next thing they click, they go, Oh, okay, that's interesting.
And then they click on, and then they see the cover and then they read the blurb. And it's so funny because there's that old saying of don't judge a book by its cover, but that's exactly, that's how I pick my books as I see the cover, if the cover entices me, then I want to read the blurb and read what it's about.
And if that gets me, I'll read the first couple of lines or a preview of the book. And then I buy it. So that's, [00:38:00] yeah, that's exactly how we do it. I think that a lot of my mistakes I've made are being too proud in a certain way. Like I didn't want to put my book free, my first book in a series free for the longest time.
I worked so hard. I was a journalism mentality and I'd been working with the Writers Union of Canada and I still do and I love them. And it's true, pay the writer. We've been earning as writers the same freaking, I don't know. What is it? 35 cents a word. It's gone up now. I earned a dollar a word for Reader's Digest, but I think it still sits around that for writing in journalism.
So I was of that mentality, I pay the writer. And I'd done a lot of working, trying to ask the government to be kinder to us with copyright laws. Now copyright laws are really different because of AI. Yeah. And it's, and so when I thought the book that I wrote, people are suggesting in courses for self publishing that I give the first one free, [00:39:00] again, the best thing I ever did.
I strangely incredibly good, got a book pub deal, which was really awesome. You do have to have had a lot of reviews and a lot of interest in the book. So I managed to land a book pub deal and that gave strangely incredibly good free to, I think I think it was 12, 000 downloads for free. So I was like.
Oh my gosh, I could have had 12, 000, right? At first I thought that, but in the end, it all came back and more because people read the book. Who is this person? It's like testing a car. Do you just buy the car or do you take it for a test drive? You like the features you go maybe I'll take another model.
Maybe the other model is comparative to the second in the series for books same kind of thing where you get a taste for what, What the author's all about and then and so I always say to people who go Oh, can I just give like a little novella or a little piece of the first book?
Cuz I don't [00:40:00] want to give the whole first book free. Sure, especially if you've just got the one book So when you put your first book out Terry You should set up a mailing list where you give a little excerpt free at least so that they That and then also they can get that for free and that's how you can get mailing list people Because they sign up for that or you could do a prelude that's even longer I've been wanting to do a novella, like 18, 000, 20, 000 for all of my series, and I haven't gotten to it yet.
But then I can give that instead of the first and see if that even works better. I think the full book works better. Yeah. Okay. That's really good advice. That's so good to know. Can you share a little bit about publishing on Amazon and, what the process is and Kindle Unlimited and how that, what that looks like.
What do you know? Because there's so much to say. So do you know where, how you do it? Do you know what [00:41:00] platform you go to and everything? What, the website is? No clue. Okay. You're starting from zero. From zero. Yeah. But you've got a lot of knowledge about business. So that's cool. That's a good, that's a benefit for you.
It's called Kindle Direct Publishing and it's kdp. com. Amazon. I think it's amazon. kdp. com. Okay. This is from memory. Just google KDP. Perfect. You can do it for absolutely for free, everybody. That's what is the draw, the primary draw, and you don't have to pay anything. But like I said, Don't be silly. Pay for an editor.
If you want to also, we want to level up the name of the self published author and if people keep self publishing and not getting it properly edited, then of course people will, there'll still be a stigma against self published works. But if you do it professionally and you hire a reputable, don't just hire someone from, I was going to say at 5R or [00:42:00] whatever, you don't know where they're coming from.
Hire someone who's got a website. An actual website, and has a lot of reviews and you even speak, you talk to some of the people who've worked with that person. Okay. Hire a graphic designer. This is going to put you back some money, but that's, if you want to make money, you're going to have to put this money in.
And then, so there is that. So I said no money, but there's no money. Once you hit KDP because you just upload it it used to be a Word document and it still can be a Word document. And then it's your ebook. They turn it into an ebook. But the best way now is called Kindle Create. It's a software and it makes prettier books.
So it puts those little dividers and I've done all my ebooks recently that way. I used to hire someone to format cause you shouldn't do everything yourself. You'll just burn out. So I'd hire someone to format it. But now you can use Kindle Create and if you're going wide with other platforms you [00:43:00] can't though because it's Kindle Create, it's only for Kindle.
But I've had success with Kindle Unlimited. It was half my income for the longest time and now paperbacks are taking off for me too. So now paperbacks and, actual sales, there's actual sales of ebooks on Amazon, which are called sales. Then there's downloads. Of which I've had thousands and that's in the kindle unlimited library and they read pages and you get paid by the page and a lot of authors have a lot of issues with how much and it's really is ludicrous amount 00.
It's half a penny. I think per page read, but yeah, it's not great. And yet I've always made more money that way than when I did try to put it wide. And Y means Kobo or Apple, and they just don't promote the writer as much in my opinion. And they also aren't like, I called up Amazon all the time throughout the last few years.
I've called them up and [00:44:00] they're, they, if they don't know the answer to that person, then they'll say we'll call you back, ma'am. They're so helpful. Of course, I put money into advertising on Amazon, but even before that. Even before that, I found them very polite and they answered my questions if I was polite and if I phoned, I think a lot of people try to just email, I'm gonna be clogging up the phone lines now for Amazon, call, talk to a person in person and be personable, yeah, a lot of them are probably working from India or from Somewhere foreign.
And I think some people have issues with that too. I've made friends with my Amazon customer service people because they're going to help me. They know the stuff. Maybe they're not in my country, but they're, they know Amazon and they can help me with, they've helped me understand if the system's down that day and a lot of people get angry.
I try not to get angry. I just say, okay, is it true? Is Amazon down right now? Yes, we're working on it. How about I email you Heather, as soon as I know it's up. Like they're, I find yeah, [00:45:00] and so my experience has been great. Others might have another experience, but that's mine. And so I'll stick with them as long as I can when I'm self publishing.
And yes, you, your eyes seem to get bigger when I said you can make a lot more. Yeah, because you get 70 percent of an ebook's royalties. A good publisher right now is giving 35%. And other ones, I don't even know the numbers, but I think it's down to 20 more like 20. Interesting. So you're not getting a big chunk of money, and then they also take audiobook rights when you have a publisher.
And be careful what you sign, because they might also take TV and film, and you probably want to keep those rights and sell them yourself. Oh, that is good to know. Depending. There's so much to know with that. There's another thing I was thinking actually before this. I didn't really think about my answers for anything.
That's okay. But I knew what you'd, I knew what you'd ask. And I thought about a challenge and it's scams. So it occurred to me today and I thought, Oh, I [00:46:00] should tell people about scams. Yeah. I would say one of the biggest challenges in the last five years. So before that there was all the other challenges I mentioned, but in the last five years, there are more people trying to make a living off of writers than there are writers right now.
And they're, some of them are helpful. Like I just, Oh yeah. Every single day I, because I have a verified Facebook page and it's it's been verified forever. I was grandfathered into Instagram because I had. They, it was nice. So they verified me on Facebook. five years ago, six years ago as a Canadian author.
People every day write me an email. They don't know my name. So that's a, clue. It's just hello. Hello. I will pay you 3, 000 a week. If we can advertise on your Facebook page, I get that every day. Sometimes it's 200. Sometimes it's 300. Sometimes it's 3000. I'm like, you don't know my name, but you're going to give me 3, 000.
So that's a scam to get your email, I believe, or [00:47:00] I don't know, but they want something. They want your money. They want your credit card. I don't know. So I just ignore those, but my email is just so much spam. So I have to have different emails. What else? So that's one example, but then there's also, you want to cut corners financially because you're trying to put so much money up front, right?
You're trying to, like I just said for those services that you should do it for. But then you want to market your name and I've been inundated too with, we will promote you on television, on Forbes magazine, on people magazine. And so I take a little take, read it carefully when you go, when you click, it's really sneaky though.
When you click and you look, it's Forbes two S's dot com. And so you're not on Forbes magazine at all. And people spend a thousand, I don't know how many thousands of dollars to be marketed by. And I don't know what the TV programs are. I'm not sure about that part, but [00:48:00] I suspect maybe they won't even do it for you.
They take your money and you don't see all the publicity they said they'd give you. Yeah, you've talked about hiring an editor, hiring a graphic designer. What would be a realistic budget for somebody self publishing their first book? If you could give us like a ballpark range of what to expect.
Are we expecting hundreds of thousands of dollars put into it? Are we expecting a couple thousand? No, a couple thousand. But my, I think it's gotten cheaper, actually, for books. Because you can do AI now, but I'm really against that because an artist is losing their salary. So I'd love if you guys didn't do that.
I know it's an option, an AI design cover. A lot of courses are saying it and I'm, and it's, this is a new technology, but I have a graphic designed young adult student who wants to get work. So it's a bit personal for me. So I was going to say that's made things a little less expensive, but I think [00:49:00] I spent a thousand dollars for an ebook cover and I wrap around like one book a thousand.
So if you have a series, it's 4, 000. Okay. But, you can make that in a month if you, yeah. On Amazon, you make four grand if you advertise, that's a whole other ballgame. You can't, your books will just be gathering dust like they are in the bottom level of the library if you don't advertise. At least on Amazon.
I love Amazon ads, but they do suck up a lot of money. They're expensive. And you don't always see the profits like that day or not the day, but say you do two weeks of ads. You won't break even necessarily, but you'll then down the road see that you're selling more because you have gotten up in the ranks.
What it does, what Amazon ads do essentially is make you visible. So maybe you won't sell enough to make back your money. You're going to have to take an ad course on Amazon ads because if you just do it guessing, you'll lose some money. [00:50:00] But, it gets you visible. Whereas if you just publish your book and that's it.
It, needs to be, the algorithm needs to know that it's popular. Okay. It's a lot like social media in that sense. Yeah. And then when it does really well, then it'll actually end up on Google, like I said, Amazon I think takes sends it to other platforms on their own. Probably, yeah. Yeah, good.
We have a couple other questions here from our audience. So Cassidy wants to know, what's your advice for coping with rejection? Obviously, feel it out. Don't shove it under the carpet. I, acknowledge that it hurts. It's okay that it hurts and and then pick yourself up and brush yourself off and try again.
I've always heard this about successful people that the ones who are successful just didn't quit. They just [00:51:00] kept going. But I'm not saying keep going after you've gotten 10 letters in a row over several months and they're all no. Of course you're going to feel bad about yourself when you're writing.
But, take a breather. I wouldn't give up on that work either because if you put time into that one work, who's to say that like the next person isn't the yes and who's to say also what's what one person doesn't like I have had some good lately I've had some I haven't been trying, for anything but scripts right now, but I'm going to go try for the novel, but for the scripts, a lot of them gave really great advice and said, I'm not sure this is for us, but I'm maybe another I think another agent Might feel differently, which is a really nice thing to say.
It means this isn't like something it's not in all our, Toolhouse? Wheelhouse? What's that called? Yeah, wheelhouse. Wheelhouse. But someone else might feel differently. Which is, give me hope. It's a [00:52:00] lot of no's before you get a yes. And, again, you can self publish, it's just that it's an awful lot of work, and you don't have the collaborative element that I do love.
That's why sometimes I do want to do a work again with a publisher because you're getting the feedback from them. It's not all me and the people I hire. I do get feedback from my books, from my editor and from better readers. But it's nice when it's a publishing firm that can give you validation, yeah. And Jerry also asked what is the best way to get over writer's block? And I know you said you don't have that problem, but you coach authors, so what is it that you would tell them to do? And I have a problem of what to work on as actually... A lot of my people who are I've coached know that I always say, I don't know which to get started on, which will be more successful.
And I think just starting is the thing. So [00:53:00] you just have to tell yourself just start just even just putting pen to paper. And then the next day doing it, I think it's important to do it. That helps writers block. You can write the next day and it can be crappy. It can be horrible, but you just wrote something and don't go back and try to edit it either.
I think that's one of the things that sticks people a lot too. I never go back after I've written creatively. And edit that day. I have blocks of time. This is my editing time, but I have to have written a lot of chapters before I even go there. And sometimes I try to do the whole book, but it has to be plotted out very carefully when I do that.
Usually, if I'm just starting a book and it's, I haven't really solidified how the plot is going to be, but I've started then I do go back and dabble and edit. And it helps me create the plot more, but it can be to your detriment because you can get stuck too. If you edit while you're still writing the whole novel.[00:54:00]
So that's also another writer's block thing that can happen. And I think going for walks I find water for me. So I go for a shower or a bath. It's just. Relaxing and lets me think about something else, I've also heard someone say before, I can't remember who said this, but they said to turn off your screen while you're writing so that you don't see the words on the page, so that your brain, the part of your brain that edits can't be editing as you're writing, so you're not filtering it the same way.
And he's there's going to be lots of typos and lots of mistakes. I like to read the sentence. I'm probably editing as I go as far as the sentence goes for sure. So it's probably why I don't write by hand anymore, because I can't, like I can't hardly read my writing and I scratch it all out. I don't scratch it out as much, like it's not, I don't think I edit as much when I'm typing.
So for my poems, they're all by hand still. I don't know what, why that's [00:55:00] different than my novels. I still do it by hand and then I go and I type it out and I might edit the poem a bit later after it, but the whole poem has been written. It's shorter, I think, whereas for a novel, I'm not going to write 70, 000 words by hand.
I saw a guy online, I saw a guy the other day who does that. I couldn't believe it. I can feel my hand cramping up thinking about that. I wanted to give him advice, but it's unsolicited, so I didn't, but I just said, wow, good for you. But, oof. You can do dictation, if anything. You can dictate now. I do that when I'm off.
I'm not the best at always taking a vacation, as my family knows. I'm a writer. I'm always in my head that way. But one way that I feel like I'm still remembering those ideas I have while I'm... Like on a vacation or seeing my family for a weekend. They live in Ottawa and I'm here. Is notes on the phone so I can just dictate or I can even type in notes but sometimes I just speak into my phone and then I've got a note [00:56:00] and it's there for when I come back on Monday.
So of all of your books, do you have a favorite? People ask that, and that's like choosing a favorite kid, right? You love each one, same, but for different reasons. And I don't have a second kid, but I guess I can do it with pets, right? Love them all, but they all have different quirks and different things that you, and you relate to them differently.
Mine change upon, every year, just like my favorite authors change every few years after I just, because I'm growing and learning, I think. But I think Lauren from Last Night and Lucky, because they're a set together, I just think that I like the fact that it's, both literary, the way that I used language, and it also hits a commercial element too.
So it's a bit of both, which is probably why, I'm still, not hitting just commercial or just literary, but my next piece, I'm trying to do something that's [00:57:00] quite commercial. I will always be true to my Values and stuff so I'll never change that and it's I'm working on something that's a small town romance, but it's Christmas So that's a crazy commercial.
Oh nice set in a small town in Canada Which might not be commercial because even producers said to me we don't I asked that we don't like to say it, but yeah, you should really set it in New York or California. I said, can I present it in Canada? I'm Canadian. We don't like to say it, but it's going to do better if it's set in an American city.
In 2023. Okay, now the part of me, we were talking about the creative soul, the part of me that's that wants to fight that, right? Totally. And just, and so I've done Lauren from Last Night and Lucky are fictional Canadian towns. They didn't do as well as Good Nights and The ticket. Is that, there's many reasons.
I know there's some suspense in Lawrence of Mastonite, [00:58:00] not everybody liked the, it's a bit darker. Okay. Like it's darker and then it has funny elements, like a movie. I the, ones that I wrote later in that series are even more so like a, or a made for TV movie. Which has I'm watching Dead to Me right now.
It has everything. It's quirky. It's bizarre. It's murder mystery. It's funny. It's talking about ageism and freaking menopause and it's ever it's, that's the kind of stuff I want to write I may have to move to California. I wouldn't be too bad. It wouldn't. It's just, another brain drain thing, right?
I'm really anti brain drain for Canada. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. As a fellow Canadian I appreciate reading about, reading books. That would be a dream to be able to succeed at. But writing those kinds of [00:59:00] books, funny as heck, but also talk about truth and vulnerability. Like Love Actually, which is old, but it just hit on so many different themes and realities.
And so that's Richard Curtis. I like the Richards, Richard Linklater, who wrote the Before Sunrise, Before Sunset, After Midnight series. They're just this guy who meets a girl. One day, and they get off the bus together, but they didn't know each other. They go, let's get off the bus, and... Is it Paris? I think it's Paris.
Maybe Rome. I think so. Who's going to correct me? They're, they have a cult following. Wow. And the dialogue is just so real and the things they talk about like not loving your spouse after because the spark is gone and stuff that's really real and people are challenged by, like people go through those challenges.
I like that. I like talking about that stuff, but it's not necessarily commercial. People want to cuddle up and watch a Christmas movie that doesn't remind them about all those, [01:00:00] that pain. So it's gonna be, I think it'll be a struggle all my career, find that balance. But to be able to write about Canada, and to have it filmed, I put a joke, where did I put that?
I put that in something I was writing too. Oh it was, I think I put it in Lucky. I was hinting at my own career in Lucky Mason at the end. Oh, it's a spoiler. Not really a spoiler. I think it's okay. Mason, ends up working with someone in Canada and says, and they're going to start a production company that, that makes Canadian movies and doesn't hide that they're made in Canadian towns.
Nice. Because right now the, everywhere you go, you see a movie, but it's, and it's filmed in Canada, but they pretend that it's made in New York or California or gone. A lot of the Hallmark Christmas movies are filmed in my neighborhood at my local coffee shop. They're there all the time. It's great.
Yes. I saw [01:01:00] this is off topic, but I have to say it because I was in my husband is from Maple Ridge and we were driving down that, they are, they film a lot of Hallmark movies there and Netflix. And I saw Steve Carell and he looked over at me and I was in the car, like I was in the passenger seat, but was driving and I turned, we were at a stoplight, I turned and he looked at me with his coffee and he almost did the, to me, like he didn't do that, but like it was in his eyes and his smirk.
And I just went. And it was just phenomenal and then we drove off and that was like two summers ago. And then I went and Googled to double check my kid, of course, goes, mommy, you're crazy. No, it wasn't Steve Carell, one of my favorite comedians of all time and like producers. I think he produces now too.
And sure enough in August of whatever that year was, I forget, I think it was 2019 or maybe 2020 he was, cause we, we went there in the summer. [01:02:00] of the pandemic was better for a while, 2021. And he films there, right there. And he was filming something that, that August. So that's exciting. Yeah, that's very cool.
I'm the kind of person that I would never notice a celebrity. Like I would never pick them out in a crowd. So that's part of being a photographer. Cause I've done a lot of, when you're asked about creative blocks, I just go to another art. So I, take photos and I've made, I used to make.
Homemade greeting cards with photos on top and then I put a bow around them and sell them in a pack and I've painted and I've cartooned and so I think I look at the world and I stop and I go, that would make a nice picture. That would make a nice painting. So I'm always looking at details. That's cool.
Which, which makes me lag behind my husband and kid who are off at a flea market and they go where's Heather? So then we had to start with oh yeah and they don't mean to go ahead, but I'm just like that. I'll just [01:03:00] like lollygag as a little kid, and I'll be looking at something and My husband got walkie talkies for that reason.
Just before the cell phone era. Like cell phones really hadn't taken off. And you couldn't have three in a family back then. It was too expensive. So he got us walkie talkies. That's so cute. Heather, we're over here. Over. Come find us. Oh, I love it. That's awesome. So before we wrap up, I would love to know, what do you read?
A lot. I read a lot of English lit Canadian novels. I was in Canadian Studies at Queen's. So I got a little overwhelmed with that after graduation, because I read 20 novels a year. Oh. A term, actually. I moved on. I probably, that's probably why I moved on to romantic comedy at that point in life, like in my 30s.
And I still love rom coms, but I don't read them when I'm writing them because that'll, I feel like that'll affect my writing and [01:04:00] my rhythm and the way I am funny in my books. So I don't. And I didn't even know about one of the greats of rom coms, Sophie Kinsella, until I'd written The Ticket. I'd gone done three novels and a friend wrote me and says, you remind me of Sophie Kinsella.
I'm like, Sophie who? So then I discovered her. And so after I think after I'd written Good Nights, I was like I better figure out who this lady is. So I love her work. She's so funny. Another one who's more indie and maybe not as known. So I'm going to mention her Tana Fenske. She's hilarious.
And hers are a little more spicy for so people who like the spicy ones and hilarious Tana Fenske. I also so that's for my that's for my light and by the pool and on the beach kind of read. And then deeper I like to read about physics and science. So Michio Kaku is a physicist Who talks to the layperson in a really easy to understand way.
Sometimes I'm confused, but I like to challenge myself. [01:05:00] About parallel universes and black holes and the future of humanity. Wow. So that's a good balance for me. And then I like to read a lot of autobiographies. Nice. Crazy love that, especially when I'm writing fiction, because that won't really affect my fiction.
I won't be influenced in any way. And I find that I learn from every person I've read all of Michael J. Fox's books. I love him. Oh, yeah. I try for Canadians first and foremost, so I've read all of Alan Doyles, who's a great big sea writer. He's got a really interesting background from Newfoundland.
And Rick Mercer. Who is a comedian from CBC and he's hilarious. So I also like to read a lot of funny people because it helps me with my humor. And, and my favorite novelist right now, but it changes over the, I don't I'll always love him, but what I mean is you find somebody new and you get crazy about them, but I [01:06:00] can't not buy a Matt Haig book right now.
Oh, cool. He wrote The Midnight Library. Okay. And he wrote The Humans, which is, he wrote that before Midnight Library and it's my favorite and it didn't, Sell as well. I don't think it's still he's all those books do really well and He's written a bunch of books that become like the boy who loved Christmas.
They've come Christmas movies on television But that one's more for children or children and their parents The humans is a satire on the human condition and how ridiculous humans can be and that some of our traditions are so bizarre it's because an alien comes down to earth and lives in a man's body and Yeah, it's a really odd premise.
So some people might put it down going this is too strange. But if you're up for a bit of fantasy in that sense, then you'll I think you'll like where he goes within the satire in it. I like satire, but a lot of people don't even [01:07:00] understand what that is. They take it too seriously. Yes. Yeah, but you have to it's a little wink.
Yeah, great. And what's the best place for people to connect with you and learn more about your books, to get your books, to learn about who you are? I am on Instagram way too much, but, quite honestly, I'm trying to write this novel, so I won't be on there. You can find me there daily, and you can give me, send me a message or a comment, and I will try to answer within a couple days.
I also coach and I'm doing that now that's why I don't have a lot of time to do social media for hours, but you can just DM me the word in one of my stories or in one of my comments I've set it up so if you put the word coaching. Not all caps, just coaching, then it'll tell you in the message, it'll give you more details about what I do and how it's, how it works.
Sends you to the, it sends you to my [01:08:00] page that I set up for coaching services. And I also have heathergraystewart. com, which sets up. All my books. And you can also sign up for my newsletter so you can get a free ebook and get started on my series. Yeah. The ticket is free there. I will put all of those links in the show notes.
Thank you so much, Heather, for coming on today and for joining us here. It's been a lot of fun and I feel like you and I could talk all day. I feel like we just had a tea break. It was so lovely. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to do it again. Okay. Sounds like a plan. Thank you so much for having me. I'm and I learned a lot from you too.
So it was really fun Oh thank you
Make sure that you check out Heather's links in the show notes. Follow her on Instagram. And as always, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend who you think. Could use this episode. And of course leave your five star review. Thank you so much for joining us today. Hope you have a [01:09:00] fantastic day.
Bye for. for. now.